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Elf Hermey

Leslie Carroll had seen enough.When his 8-year old son starting singing “holiday carols” learned at school Leslie knew he had to get involved. In calling the school he was told that Christmas was “equalized” with other cultural events during December. Along with Hanukkah and Kwanzaa, Christmas was “observed” in a teaching unit titled “celebrating diversity”.For [...]View the full article

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1SantaClausVA

Agreed. At a minimum, Christmas should at least have an accurate and equal footing! :D

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John Johnson

Amen, I agree fully!

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Michael Rielly

Oh one of my favorite terms... “celebrating diversity”

<_<

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Santa TJS

CHRISTMAS is CHRISTMAS plain and simple. I does not need to be masked by Happy Holidays!!

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Santa Dave

Well said TJS!!

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Kona

Gentlemen our nation is and has always been a meting pot of cultures both ethnic and religious. Tolerance has to mean just that tolerance no mater what religion you practice. Our country has a long an honored history of acceptance of all people, am I religious yes but not to the extent of exclusion of anyone else's. I joined the Army when I was 18 serving from 1969 ~ 1977 my body was destroyed and apart of my sole was taken from me. I have seen things done to people for no other reason than they did not believe in the same religion. This Must Stop. Since the dawn of time each side in the battle would say that GOD in on there side and there were wrong. I don't care what your faith is, I don't care if you worship a Christan God, Allah, Muhammad, Buddha, Mother Nature or if your an Atheist. I will not believe that I spent my youth fighting to preserve that most fundamental right the right to practice YOUR OWN RELIGION as you see fit. It is not our place as a representation of Santa Claus a man of love and giving to openly condemn anyones religious practice just because it conflicts with our own beliefs. When we start throwing around religion labels were does it stop is it then OK to call a Muslim man a derogatory name. I fully understand the strong bond with ones own faith but isn't part of that faith understand? I have seen this topic come up on other forums and I was ridicule for my position. I have left those forums and found my way here to ClausNET an Ossis away from the maddness.

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Guest clauswithacause

I understand your thoughts Kona. I am a graduate of the University of Illinois in Political Science, I understand the idea of Freedom of Religion and I thank you for fighting for that Freedom. I understand what you have witnessed, and this is a further call to stand up for what is right.

As a part of that Freedom, each of us is priviledged to excercise our religious Freedom free from interference of any Government authority including the schools. There is no "Separation Clause" (no pun intended, unfortunately) in the Constitution (I happen to have an emphasis in the Declaration and the Constitution in my studies...).

We have the Freedom as defined in the founding documents in our country, to celebrate Christmas as our conciences dictate. Much of the recent Chrismas War is an attempt to intimidate us in to accepting a purely secular or even atheistic celebration of Christmas. This violates the Freedom you fought so hard to defend. I, as a Christian, have a right to celebrate Christ in Christmas. If a school chooses to celebrate any holidays then it should accurately represent and celebrate all of them.

I don't mind a teaching on what Hannuka means (I would even love to teach it! My masters is in Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic...I love the Hebrew culture.) Or even the true origins of Kwaanza (a created holiday) But if you want to teach these accurately you must also teach Christmas accurately, Christmas is the Celebration of the birth of Christ Jesus. It is not possible to teach about Christmas without teaching who Jesus is (not attempting to convert anyone, but just telling the truth about it's origins.)

I will defend anyone's right to celebrate their religion as they see fit, but I will not shrink from defending my right to excercise that same Freedom.

May you all enjoy it.

Merry Christmas

Chris

Claus with a Cause

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Kona

Chris, Nor would I ask you or anyone to do so I just think that there is room on this planet for all of us.

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Santa Mike

Brother Santas,

Polictical correctness or not, this has to stop. Why is it that for 200 years there was never a problem in this country of saying "Merry Christmas" and not worrying about hurt someone's feelings. It has always been said in a congenial way in wishing someone well during the season. Now that all the lawyers and ACLU have arrived on the scene we have to worry about offending people because of differences. it was never a concern before and we got along fine.

Diversity and PC goes out the window for me during THE SEASON. I will continue to say "Merry Christmas" as long as I live, intending no harm to anyone. I will take no offense if someone greets me with "Happy Hannukah" or "Happy Kwanzaa". I will take it in the spirit intended and would hope others will do the same. I am so tired of all this PC crap, and I hope no one is offended by my opinion. That's all it is, my opinion.

I'm sorry this subject has found it's way to this site. Until now it has been filled with love and brotherhood. For the sake of who and what we represent, let us get past it and back to the spirit we are to pass on.

Edited by Santa Mike

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Elf Gary

Saddly it was bound to happen,in history all major conflicts were about Ideology, Territory and Resources.

This is all about ideology.

Santa Mike is right, this has to stop.

I too very humbly thank you Santa Kona for what you have done for us all but concider it, trying to extricate Christmas from the holiday season is a form of censurship on a societal level.

The problem with censurship is that once it starts it does not stop.

The Christmas season is about loving everyone, it is harder to love everyone if they try to tell you "you can celibrate my way not yours".

You are right Santa Kona religion has caused a lot of suffering but it brings a lot of comfort.

I have been in almost daily communication with a nice woman in Britain she is currently in London (hospitalised i expect) with incurable cancer, she is rapidly dying,she should (if the doctors are correct) be dead by summer.

the last message i got from her was full of religious refrences, her time is getting short and we bouth know it.

It gives her comfort to embrace those things that the political correction police want to rip away.

I am not an overtly religious man but i am comfortable discussing thiese things with her because it is right to do so.

Is it a Christian thing to do ? possibly,oddly enugh while i am a spiritual person i could not be called a religous one.

Edited by Elf Gary

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Santa Bill

Dear Brothers in Red

This subject brings some strong feelings out. Santa Kona I thank you for your sevice as well as all the men and women that have servered this country. So let us all to agree to disagree. There are over 300 on here now and there are 300 plus diffrent opinions. It would be nice to go back like it was in the sixtys but it is not going to happen. A couple of years ago where I work we were not to say Merry Christmas but I did and will all ways will. I don't always agree with every thing I hear but I belive that we must protect the right for them to say them as long as we have the right to say what we wish to say. To me Christmas has only one reason and that is to celaberat the birth of the Christ Child. So Merry Christ mas to All. Ok I am off my soap box.

Edited by Santa Bill

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Guest clauswithacause

There is no real fight going on here, I was not hurt or offended by Kona's posting and I don't think he was offended by mine (If he was, I appologise).

I have been accused of making people think here before (I am using accused in a humorous way), and most of what I wrote was just that, an excercise in thought. If it made you think through the process of what is right and wrong about what is going on with how Christmas is celebrated then I succeded in what I was trying to do.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me. I will, however, defend Kona and everyone else's right to express what they think and feel. I don't take offence too easily, and hopefully I never give offence, if I have I am sorry. I do enjoy discussions about topics like politics and religion (Let's see, degrees Political Science and Biblical Languages? You might guess on that one! LOL) I do think it is possible to have discussions where people don't always agree but yet respect each other and their right to hold those opinions. I know Kona respects my thoughts and opinions. He has told me so. I also know I respect his.

There was no one here calling anyone any names, no belittleing or chiding, just the expression of ideas and opinions. Clean, open, honest discussion. I am OK here. Anybody hurt, or is everyone else here OK too?

Chris

Claus with a Cause

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Kona

First I would like to apologize to anyone that may of misunderstood what I was try to say. I was not saying that what the schools, ACLU and others was right, just that they were entitled to there opinion. We are not just a Christan nation but a nation made up of such a vast collection of different ethnic and religious backgrounds. That is what make America great I have always said Merry Christmas and I do know what the true meaning of the season is. I'm not question anyones ideology or trying to censor anyone. I just think that we as Santa's should not be the first ones pointing fingers at anyone because they don't share our view of what the Christmas season is all about. Again I am sorry if I offend anyone it was not my intention I wish you all the very best.

Edited by Santa Kona

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Santa Mike

I, too, apologize if I offended anyone here. That was not my intent. I have a tendency to say what I think before I think it all the way through. I'm just tired of the powers that be (and that includes no one on this site) trying to tell us what to think and say for fear of offending anyone. It just seems to me that people of this country use to be able to say, think and do for themselves before political correctness came to be.

Let us continue to represent and spread the reason for the Christmas season and the cheer that comes from that same REASON, the Christ child. HE too tells us to be respectful of each other. Just doesn't seem to come across the same way when it comes from the PC police.

Again, I apologize if anyone here was offended by my remarks. I think I just picked the wrong time and place to vent.

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1SantaClausVA

Well, the irony to me is that by saying "Happy Holidays" we are really saying "Happy Holy Days".

That is the origin of the expression. So, if "Merry Christmas " is too religious, how is "Happy Holy Days" not?

The 'problem' is the religion is Christianity.

I agree there is room enough for all of us on this planet, Christians included.

In fact, I am going to an Interfaith Prayer Breakfast tomorrow morning, Christians, Jews, and Muslims, all in one place praying to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who is the same God of Ishmael, and Jesus - the creator of all that is. It should be powerful!

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Guest clauswithacause

Very good point VA! It is kind of like the people who use Merry Xmas, trying to leave Christ out of it, when X has been an abbreviation for the name of Christ since very ancient Greek times. (IC XC for Jesus Christ, and XP as the Chi Rho of Christ)

You just can't get away from the truth.

Chris

Claus with a Cause

Edited by clauswithacause

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Santa Don G.

I see from these posts the quality of folks who make up this forum. Gentlemen, you are to be commended. It's not often that one witnesses a discussion on differing opinions, especially those which are so close to the heart, where someone is not offended and becomes abusive in his language. I am honored to be a part of this fine group.

That said, my views are likely in the minority here, but personally, I do not celebrate Christmas as the birth of Christ even though I am a deeply religious (Christian) man. My reasoning is founded on the unlikelihood that the birth of Christ was anywhere near to the date of December 25th.

The scholars point to several inconsistencies. The climate in Bethlehem is similar to that of the Texas, Oklahoma border, which can be pretty nasty and cold at that time of year. First, it is highly unlikely that shepherds were in the fields at that time of year. Secondly, it seems unlikely that the king would require his subjects to travel in that sort of weather for a census taking.

I, for one, feel very uncomfortable in assigning a date to the birth of our Savior if it is not the correct date. I sure don't want folks to get my birthday wrong. Also, I think the important thing to celebrate is His death which ultimately brought salvation to the world.

Do I include Christ in Christmas? Absolutely! Christmas is all about peace, love and joy, which epitomizes the life of the Messiah.

Best,

Santa Don

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Santa Bill

I too hope i did not offended anyone as well. I agree with santa Kona. I may not agree with what some one says but I will deffend there right to say it. And VA I hope your Prayer breakfast goes well.

Edited by Santa Bill

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Kona

Santa Don G, I like your thinking for as long as I can remember I can't think of another time when anyone put it in that prospective for me. [" I think the important thing to celebrate is His death which ultimately brought salvation to the world." ] Thanks for sharing.

Edited by Santa Kona

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Elf Gary

You see? real friendships embrace difference of opinion, no feelings were hurt and there is not one thing lost by bieng big eugh to agree to disagree - what is friendship without learning from one another?

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Guest clauswithacause

I agree, I celebrate his death and his resurection which bought our true freedom. Like I said, if we stick to a clean, open, honest sharing of opinions we should have no problem...

Just a note:

Bethlehem was where the bulls, sheep and goats for the Temple sacrifices were kept. Temple sacrifices occured daily and could require thousands of sheep or goats a year. It was only about three miles from Jerusalem. Because of the constant demand, sheep were kept in the hills around Bethlehem year around.

The census was probably conducted over a full year also...administrative practice was a little different then.

I have heard many dates suggested for Christmas, March 25, April 17, September, October. But the earliest date we have was December 25. It was celebrated by Christians in the early 100s, if not before.

The most compelling thought for this date though comes from the idea that it was the Winter Solstice on virtually all the ancient Calendars. Isaiah said that the Messiah would come into 'Great Darkness', December 25 on the old Calendars was the darkest day of the year. Coupled with the fact that "The Bread of Life" was born in a city that was named "House of Bread" (That is what Bethlehem means in Hebrew), and the "Lamb of God" was born in a stable, I think God has a keen sense of poetry and there is a great deal of symbolism in the light shining forth into the darkness (see the many references in John where almost that exact phrase is used...). Not to mention that three miles lower, on the shores of the Dead Sea, you have the lowest spot on the surface of the Earth. Paul said in the fullness of time (chiros-not chronos, ie at the perfect place and moment in Eternal history, not just time as in minutes and hours of the clock...) God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, in order to accomplish his goals--Salvation of Mankind.

In the long run it really does not mater when, just that Jesus came and overcame Sin and Death on our part. But there is a lot of rich symbolism if the date for December 25 is right.

Coincidence: It was also the birthday of Constantine, and the day of celebration for the religion he previously belonged to-Sol Victus- the ever Conquering Sun (sometimes called Sol Invictus-The Unconquerable Sun). Now we worship the Son and not the sun!

Edited by clauswithacause

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Guest clauswithacause

Here is a semon link for the Christmas Sermon I did last year that covers some of the same topics:

http://audio.vcfbn.org/index.php?p=Isaiah

go to 2007-12-23 (the Sunday before Christmas was 12/23/2007 for the sermon...)

Edited by clauswithacause

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